A basic commuter car costs over S180,000( US135,000) due to a compulsory 10-year quota license (COE/certificate of entitlement) that alone costs S$100,000+, plus registration taxes scaling up to 320% of the car's base value. Total running costs (tolls, parking, road tax) easily add S1,000–S2,000+ per month.
Singapore is so small though and cabs are cheap and I never needed a car. I can see why Waymo will be very attractive.
~$100,000 every 10 years is expensive, but I think even in a lot of countries with good public transport, there would be a large number of people who would consider paying $1,000 a month to be able to have a car if that was the only way to have one. It seems to me as though a lot families share a car quite widely too.
Even in countries without an expensive on-road tax, people do often choose to pay more than $10,000 a year in depreciation cost, rather than the option of buying a car that has already gone through the early, rapid depreciation. People also choose to get a car loan, again increasing the cost. I'm fairly uninformed whether the interest on those is significant.
Of course, the COE is in addition to depreciation and maintenance, and those are both also expensive in Singapore. Plus people buy the cars through loans. And, excluding everything I've said above, the cars themselves are very expensive to buy!
As an example, a 2.0L e:HEV Honda Civic is US$195,000 including the COE, so approximately US$90,000 without it. Looking on the US Honda site, it looks like the same car is under US$33,000. There must some on-road taxes in the US, and difference in specs, but that's a big difference in price, in addition to the ~$100,000 COE.
Even knowing they're expensive, there's something I still can't get over, seeing a 6-figure price across the windscreen of a base model (and knowing you don't get to take off any zeros when doing a currency conversion to what you're used to).
> You save so much on income tax in Singapore, but consumption is expensive.
It depends on what you are consuming. Sins like driving, alcohol, smoking and gambling are expensive. But the daily essentials aren't all that expensive, especially eating out starts very low.
If you are an American, you have to start looking into the housing deduction to make your taxes work since the foreign tax credit doesn’t go very far in Singapore (and you need the FTC after the foreign earned income credit caps).
> People also choose to get a car loan, again increasing the cost.
Sorry, could you please explain how car loans increase the cost?
> Of course, the COE is in addition to depreciation and maintenance, and those are both also expensive in Singapore. Plus people buy the cars through loans. And, excluding everything I've said above, the cars themselves are very expensive to buy!
In a sense, all these other costs don't really matter: if they increased (or dropped) by a dollar, in equilibrium the winning CoE bid would drop (respectively increase) by a dollar.
It is no hyperbole to say that 90 percent of car loans are between 8-14 percent interenst in the US right now. That is considering branded dealerships, partners, and used/CPO lots.
A 10 percent rate on a 40k loan for a 60k mid-range SUV over 5 years is roughly 10k more in costs to the buyer. THis is the average purchase price/loan term in the US for new cars, at least.
So while a 10k increase in price due to the loan isn't comparable to a 3-6x in price in Singapore, the infinitely higher amount of consumers in US caught in this trap is directly going into the selling agent's pocket. At least in SGP, that COE entitlement cost goes to "the state".
I said I never needed a car there :) I can get anywhere by cab in like < 30 mins so I never saw the need to have one. However there are plenty of ultra rich people living there and also many driving luxury cars. It's also a status symbol there(Credit card/Condo/Car).
In the 80s and 90s when the housing market was more immature, I believe condos and landed property were around the same price, and condos were seen as somewhat more prestigious because it came with private facilities.
despite the convenience of a well-run public transport system and uber-like services, the ease and freedom of owning your own transport is still hard to beat, and evidently worth the ~75k dollar COE. it removes the walk from bus/subway stations under the tropical/sun, humidity; and the wait (typically 5-10min) of waiting for your uber/taxi driver to showup and enduring the uber car smell (often heavily scented for some reason and triggers my allergic reaction) and someone else's music. and once you have children a car is almost a must.
Yes. And the Uber-like services and traditional taxis also need to bid for CoE.
I never had a problem with the driver's music in Singapore: usually they just play the bland local radio, or you can ask them to turn it off. Smell: sometimes a problem when you get a smoker. I guess some try to mask that with heavy scents?
For me the worst is that the local taxi uncles tend to pump the gas pedal. That's nausea inducing.
About the wait for the cab: usually you wait in the mall or at home etc, where you can have shelter from the sun and aircon.
Having your own car is convenient, especially with kids, since you can keep stuff in the car. But having to find parking all the time is also annoying.
A lot of people get a car when they have kids as taking grab with a car seat can be unwieldy. Also, COE wasn’t always $100K, many people are still on legacy COE when it was $30-$50K
One note, taxis are exempt from car seat laws and you can book them on demand via grab or the taxi company apps. That's what we did, it's a slight risk but so is life.
COE was around 30K in the first year of COVID. Not exceptionally long ago. We have a continental car we bought at the end of 2020 with a 41.5K COE; we paid less in total than what a base-model Corolla costs nowadays.
Really? I would have expected CoEs to be roughly evenly staggered.
Also keep in mind that when lots of CoEs expire at the same time, you'll also have more demand in the market from those people whose CoE just expired, but who still want a car.
The utility of a car in singapore is very different from other places. Yes, a car will get you faster from point A to point B in singapore when compared to public transport. But you can get a private hire car or a taxi which is just as fast and is probably much more convenient.
For many people in Singapore, a car's real utility is to signal status. More often than not, this status gets you real-life benefits. Such as increased dating success.
Yes, because when adjusted to car ownership costs, the young have a lower purchasing power when compared to the older generation at the same age back then.
I'm not sure that's a good lens to look through: the total number of cars in Singapore is fixed, and ownership cost adjusts (via the CoE auction) to balance supply and demand.
So there's no drop in total car ownership to explain: that one is held fixed. What we'd need to explain is why comparatively more older people and fewer younger people drive.
Singapore residents are not limited to one car. There's a lot of regional ultra rich in Singapore, and it's not unusual for them to have half a dozen or more cars, all of which count against the total cap.
Singapore's population has exploded in the past 20 years, almost doubling due to immigration. Native birth rate has collapsed.
Many relatively wealthy foreign individuals have moved to Singapore, disproportionately middle aged and above. These folks also compete in buying car quotas. They can also buy more than one car. Their demand is more inelastic.
Younger folks, local or foreign born are priced out.
For Singapore's boomers, success once meant the 5 Cs: cash, car, credit card, condominium and country club. For today's young Singaporeans, these no longer define success.
The price is high because there is sustained demand.
Hah! No but seriously. For a variety of reasons, owning a car in Singapore is a step change in QoL.
Infrastructure reasons:
- abundant parking at destinations (e.g. malls), home (HDB flats, condominiums) due to fairly generous car park lot mandates. IIRC, HDBs, where 85% of Singaporeans live, have until fairly recently had a 1:1 unit:lot ratio. Similarly for condominiums. A lot of these are progressively being scaled down especially near train stations, but buildings and giant multi storey parking lots are fixed infrastructure that will be around for decades. Abundant parking will be available for decades still.
- roads are wide and well maintained and well connected.
The experience:
- because the number of cars on the road are controlled through the COE system, the experience of driving is good. We get slow traffic but it is extremely rare that we get the kind of multi-hour jams that other countries experience.
- the door-to-door experience saves tons of time. In public transport, I walk (7m), wait for the train (3m), sit on the train (36m), get out at the interchange and walk to another platform (2m), wait for the train (2m), sit on the train (12m), exit and walk to my destination (11m). Total time: 1h14m. In a car, I walk to my car (2m), drive to my destination (35m), walk from the car park to my destination (1m). Total time: 38m. x2 for the return trip, and the car saves you a whole hour a day.
- the public transport experience is not so good if you have a family or are disabled. Don't even mention cyclists, culturally we spit on them here.
The status:
- it's true, the car is a status symbol. You don't know it until you get into conversations where driving a "mere BMW" as opposed to a mercedes is looked down on, or when someone mentions that driving a hatch is "not appropriate" (to station). Sedans are still popular here because they're "executive". Yes, these are all real conversation points I've been in.
Combine all of the above and owning a car in Singapore means you save tons of time, is technically "affordable" after loans, and you get to feel like you made it. So there's huge pressure to get a car. And once you're hooked, it is very difficult to give it up.
Then you have other reasons, like Taxis and Grab compete with individuals for the COE, and parents who "made it" in the boom years buying cars for their kids, and foreign money coming in. But I don't know how big these effects are.
Many US/UK/overseas folks won't really understand Singapore's roads because they are such a foreign system. "Traffic" doesn't exist in the western sense of the word there. So because of size, traffic, and all-in vehicle costs, rideshare apps will always be cheaper than owning a car in Singapore.
OTOH, SG's public transport is world class, but could be much better if they gave buses more priority over cars. The door to door experience of buses is already fantastic: they are cheap, accessible (no long walks to platform like the MRT), timely, and well connected. However they are crowded (need more buses) and bus lanes aren't a thing over there.
It's a weird place where they do an amazing job at urban planning but still give as much space to roads as to housing because their richest and most powerful also tend to enjoy driving.
And then there's the culture. Drivers are way too entitled in Singapore. Many have no interest in giving way to pedestrians, and simply aren't interested in "sharing" the road. I'm keen to see less drivers there. It will improve things greatly.
Everyone says that but I've had the opposite experience, possibly due to my location (near Orchard Rd). Can easily pay $15 to essentially go around the corner.
I love walking - checking distance tracking on my phone, I walked over 20km in a day a couple of weeks ago. But when it's hot in Singapore, the distances I don't want to walk can become crazy-short at times.
I'm hesitating to judge someone taking a ride-share around the corner. Among many other reasons, I can imagine scenarios where someone would think it worth paying to not arrive a sweaty mess.
I walk 99% of the time. By around the corner, I mean a 10 - 20 min walk (5 min drive in good traffic), which will easily get you drenched in sweat depending on the weather. If I'm headed to a dinner or gathering that requires a bit of dressing up (shirt and trousers), walking isn't really an option.
I’ve been travelling to singapore for the last 15 years, my gut view is cabs are far more expensive today than they were 10 years ago even after adjusting for inflation. Maybe it’s just incorrect memories - rates don’t seem to have increased that much.
My next trip to singapore is the end of next week. I’m staying a mile from the office, Apple predicts it’s 89% at 0730 but will drop to 75% during the day, and back upto 80% after dinner.
When was this? I lived in a condo at walking distance from Orchard station for a couple of years and never had the feeling that I was paying more for the cab. I also lived in other less affluent areas so I had a good idea about how much it should cost.
As a platform engineer being based mainly out of Australia/Hong Kong, opportunities seem to be getting less unless targeting high frequency trading or banking.
It seems like building a startup with the help of some AI tools might be the best bet.
Taobao and Temu are great. The quality is not always amazing, but the prices are low and many sellers even offer customisation.
In Australia, the product selection is often limited, and a lot of local stores are just reselling Chinese-made products with huge markups anyway. At that point, you may as well order directly from China and save money.
> If you are a non-resident business and you sell goods into Australia with a customs value of A$1,000 or less, GST applies and you will have to collect this from your customer and send the GST to us.
Logitech K480 is my favorite. Its best feature is a slot. Put your iPad in it and it stays put. Even on a lap or bed or other unstable surfaces. And it's only $30. Meaning there's no worry if it breaks or is stolen on a trip.
Another thing I like about it is how wide the slot is. I can fit my iPad and iPhone into it simultaneously. Which is quite convenient at times
My iPad travel setups, from least-portable/most-functional to most-portable/least-functional:
1. iPad Air with iPad Magic Keyboard.
2. iPad Air with Smart Keyboard Folio.
3. iPad Mini (usually in portrait mode) with Magic Keyboard. (The mac bluetooth keyboard, no numpad. I use an sfbags sleeve for it.)
I've got one of these, which has the slot above the "F" keys to support your phone and/or tablet at a good viewing angle. For better or worse the 2 lb. keyboard is heavily weighted so it will support the devices in the slot without tipping over.
And you can switch between 3 devices from the keyboard, which can also include a Bluetooth desktop.
Too heavy to carry around so it stays in the office.
There are plenty of lightweight options for much cheaper prices which can be better for travel, which are also just as big as a tablet but at least not nearly as heavy.
Wait until you get a Bluetooth mouse which can put your touchscreen to shame :)
These mice are also much more abundant for cheaper prices now, when they were not that common just a year or two ago.
Also good for your laptop when you want to save USB slots for other things.
The tax is already bad here, even without it. I paid $89,000 taxes just for the last financial year because stock gains are added up on top of the income and my partner doesn’t work and there’s no family support allowance here.
I can apply Australian citizenship next year but I will leave ASAP after becoming a citizen for Singapore, Dubai or Hong Kong where the tax is < 20%
To pay $89,000 in taxes you'd have to be earning in the range of $350k. Do you think you're hard done by? I'd be rather annoyed if you were eligible for family support allowance in that earning range? (partially because I'd be missing out on a decent chunk of government support myself)
What am I missing about your situation that makes it remotely sympathetic?
If you live in inner Sydney, the rent alone is $1350 pw and tax is ridiculous. I basically sold my stocks to have a down payment but then that got added on top of income. If i’d have stayed in HK, i’d have paid 0% for that.
I just treat it as paying for Australian citizenship to
make me feel better and it still comes out cheaper than buying a Saint Kitts and Nevis passport. Australian passport also opens up the E3 visa to go to the USA
Oz needs the immigrants or it would be screwed. It isn't a fecking privilege.
In NZ ~30% of the population was born overseas. We do it because NZ requires more people of working age - because our demographics are shit and they're becoming deeper shit (aside AU is part of our problem). We need young workers and we bribe them here with lifestyle, money from jobs, and houses for the fortunate.
It's a compounding bad debt solution - since those immigrants also get older and will become unaffordable retirees for our country.
I think Aus has similar dynamics - but not as badly because Oz is much wealthier than NZ.
I'm some years away from retirement age - but the demographics mean that I'm screwed. Everyone will be screwed. If you're fortunate enough to have been able to save for retirement, say goodbye to those savings over time.
I expect NZ will start to increase immigration because there's too many undesirable jobs (jobs that NZers don't want to do, or that there simply isn't enough NZers for the jobs).
Immigrants work. It is a only a stop-gap solution.
Our politicians lack the ability to encourage enough business growth: therefore taxation income can't keep up with NZ government expenses.
As an Australian with a family and 2 high-paying salaries paying a LOT of tax, none of those countries are remotely comparable to Australia.
If you hate taxes and fees, Singapore has a 60% Additional Buyer's Stamp Duty on residential property applied to foreign buyers, on top of an already insane property market. There's huge fines and government intervention into _everything_ and a massive high-stress culture.
Hong Kong is equally absurd for property and has a sword hanging over its head, that falls if China ever makes a move on Taiwan; the inevitable US and global sanctions would decimate HK.
I can get PR in Singapore through my partner, so no 60%. Company paid medical and everything so expat life and no responsibilities. And if I were ever have to have kids, you can’t hire a maid here sleeping at your apartment and you have to clean yourself which is ridiculous. In Hk, SG, Dubai you can get domestic helpers cheaply and they take care of everything
Mate, 3 months ago you admitted on HN that you never get Singapore PR, just admit you want to moan how west is bad. I pay more taxes than you, and that's ok, Australia worth it.
> shell0x 3 months ago | As a white person, I’d probably never get PR too but I think it’s good that they maintain the current percentages, otherwise the country would turn unrecognizable like Germany or France
> And if I were ever have to have kids, you can’t hire a maid here sleeping at your apartment and you have to clean yourself which is ridiculous.
Not sure if serious.
If serious: This is a really weird and almost sociopathic thing to say. I really don't get where you're coming from. It's certainly not the cultural direction I'd like to see Australia moving in.
OK, just seems weird from my cultural experience, and the way I was reading your comment it sounded 'entitled' (likely due to the cultural difference).
Describing it as "pretty good value" bothers me in a number of contexts.
I'm also fine with this never becoming a thing in Australia. Not sure how out-of-touch or in-touch that makes me, but that's how I feel nonetheless.
@Loocid, thanks for saying what I was dancing around.
Its too close to slavery for my liking. Yes they are paid but 2.5k per month is very low for Singapore, they work massive hours, they rely on you for shelter, and are very likely from much poorer neighbouring countries that are trying to support family back home.
The whole power dynamic is extremely exploitable which results in a lot of abuse cases.
If you made income, and enough gain in stocks to pay that much in tax, you should be happy.
I want to know why you are keen to become an Australian citizen if you’re not enthusiastic about contributing your share.
Constructive discussion about appropriate levels of taxation is important, but let’s at least agree that the things we rely on (roads, hospitals, schools, defence, …) cost something.
I lived in Singapore and Hk before, don’t drive, work from home and countries are pretty much interchangeable. I left Germany for high taxes for a reason.
I pay private medical so don’t benefit much from tax anyway. No kids, no car, paid off my apartment. I can get much better value elsewhere right?
If I tell you you can pick 3 dishes
a) singapore: safe, low crime, low tax, efficient, excellent public transportation, better roads
b) hk: safe, low crime, low tax, politically getting worse, excellent public transport, better airport
c) australia: higher crime compared to the other too, high tax but bad services
I basically pay for an overpriced dish with bland taste, so why would I keep doing that?
I preferred living in Hong Kong and Singapore and do not enjoy living here honestly, but if you treat it as payment for my+partner’s backup citizenship, it seems more justifiable.
I'd assume, as an Australian, who works for a HK company and has travelled for work all their life, the long term lifestyle in Australia is probably better than those countries. I love HK and Singo but I am not sure I'd want to live there. But for working, most people here would not work in an iron lung and the socialist government pretty much supports the idea that, if you don't like to work, you shouldn't have to as long as there are a few who will work. And, that number is fewer and fewer.
I'm sorry but you pay more in tax than I make in income! This sounds like your lifestyle creep has chewed up your money stream. Despite my significantly lower income, I manage to own my house in Melbourne. With your income I could have it paid down in a few years at most.
I'm in a similar boat, and can relate to the on-going management and suppression of lifestyle creep in order to reach worthwhile goals. It feels like a never-ending battle, even after 20 years.
Good job paying that off. I’m sure Australia has benefits for some but without kids, not having grown up here, paying my own insurance and not driving I don’t really see it.
That makes sense to me. If you come on a non-immigrant visa, you can’t become a permanent resident easily. it’s a privilege, not a right. Other countries like the UAE also take a lot of foreign workers but do not want them become PRs or citizens and there are tons of people moving there for opportunities. The labor is needed but they don’t want these people permanently. You made your money, now leave
That doesn't make any sense. The US enjoys its position of economic power because it has the reputation and wealth to attract skilled people and keep them here.
This is my thought too. The intent of the law is for it to be temporary, and creating the citizenship loophole has caused a lot of issues. I think the expectation H1B may lead to citizenship causes a lot of disress and forces people into roles that take advantage of them, and closing the loophole seems strictly good.
Shocking. I had an interview for an Australian job with JP Morgan recently and even the interviewers were based in India. Super rude, could barely understand him due the strong accent, he couldn’t ask a single intelligent question and it was kinda clear that the org basically just hires other Indians. They always end up talking a lot while doing almost nothing and only hiring their friends and family while Chinese engineers just get stuff done. I’m sure there are exceptions but in my 15 years in tech I can count with two hands how many good Indian engineers I worked with.
Or maybe you just aren't that good of an engineer (or whatever profession you are into) and find the easiest group to blame on your failures. I found that people who often are quick to judge and group of people in one bucket based on their color/ethnicity/gender/... are often not that bright people and like to focus on directing it on others. Somewhat like MAGA.
Wow this escalated quickly. What OP is saying is not anecdotal but true to every major US tech company. You can cope all you want, won't make a difference
I have seen teams that are 100% Indians with a manager actively pushing Indian resumes and friends/family on top. They don’t play nice and by the DEI rules like a lot of Americans do.
But I have also seen amazing Indian managers that don’t act like this.
It’s ok to acknowledge that culturally Indians will favor themselves heavily. As bad as some of you want to make it sound like racism to close that conversation at all cost.
I'm sure you do. But your real life experience is not everyone else's real life experience, so there's no really need to make blanket statements about people.
Oh wow, you went from one place to some totally different place at the drop of a hat. Where did me "coming" to Western Europe come into the discussion about racial stereotyping about Indians? I'm not in Western Europe, and I don't plan to live there, not sure how you got that impression.
I think there's no reasoning with someone who only wants to deal in absolutes. Have a good day.
There is some bias in some teams, but it's not universal, and such a bias for one's ethnicity really exists in teams of all ethnicities. You just see it more because there are plenty of xxxx in IT.
The reason is basically that you are "required" to hire other "Indians".
If you get a job at a good company on your own merit, you immediately start getting calls to "refer" your college friends, family, people from your region/state.
Refer here means refer it to HR and make some "setting" that you are guranteed to be hired based on your "reference".
Naturally reference would mean that considering you are an employee you would know about open positions and may refer the position to your friend, who would later on get the job on his own merit considering that he is skilled for the position along with required experience.
But the case for Indian employees is that a reference entails to scam the company itself, by letting a less skilled person into the company by making a "setting" with HR etc, who may themselves be from the same region/state.
And if you try to be morally upright person to deny such a scammy "reference", you would then get to listen verbal abuses from your friends and even from your own family members. To deny such a reference leads to straight up "banishment".
Tip:- Among 100 Indians if you see, only 1 or 2 are actually good at their job (or by morality).
Jokes aside, if in 15 years you have worked with only few good Indian engineers, you probably have not yet worked at places with high talent density. I could understand if you had said you have (a) worked with many low quality engineers from India, or (b) worked with far more low quality engineers from India than high quality ones. But if, in absolute numbers, you haven't come across many good engineers from India, I can only infer than you probably haven't worked with very good engineers across the board.
Singapore is so small though and cabs are cheap and I never needed a car. I can see why Waymo will be very attractive.
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